Curse

Ira Blinks · Apr 15, 2006, 12:52 PM // 12:52

This is to branch out thread of discussion from closed thread
Elementalists and Mesmers, extinct in PVE?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagflame

Barrage does not cause damage over time. It causes the damage once every time you cast it. Although you can cast it faster than every two seconds, it only deals damage when you cast it and therefore, although it is area of effect of a sort (It has a limited number of targets, unlike what I normally consider AoE) it is most certainly not DoT.

Actually you right in one thing. My definition was slightly broken. It is not "more than one damage cycle per cast". It is more like "damage from the same source faster than every 2 seconds".

Now definition of "source" can be rather unclear. Yet I can prove that Barrage should be triggering scattering by doing similar thing with ele spells. Yes, you heard me right - I can cast two AoE non-DOT spells (simply because eles dont have AoE spell with less than 2 seconds recharge) and cause scattering.

In fact I actively exploit Fireball + Flameburst combo for defenisive purposes. Easy to try to: Get some melee mobs on you. Cast Fireball. Cast Flameburst.
Unless they got caugh in the middle of casting healing signet (or you got interrupted), they WILL run 100% of the time.
I also noticed that mobs run from my meteor shover if I had a fastcast on Rodgort's Invocation.

I think this clearly proves that if two different instant damage AoE spells can cause scattering, then so should Barrage.

Now regarding SS: I still fail to see fundamental difference with firestorm.
Firestorm is cast on a target, and so is SS. Firestorm deals damage to target and foes around it, and so does SS. The fact that SS AoE moves around with initial target doesnt stop it from being DOT AoE, it just makes it damn good DOT AoE with same energy cost and castime, half recharge time and damage thru the roof.
If that still does not convince you that SS should cause scattering then tell me the difference with Mark Of Pain. I think you got my point.

lyra_song · Apr 15, 2006, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Regarding SS: Fundamental difference is self activation

Firestorm - If you stand there you have no choice but to take damage. The only way to stop taking damage is to leave the area.

SS - You take damage if you choose to do something (attack/skill/signet).

As of now, enemies will cast through Backfire, attack through SS and Empathy, attack with Ineptitude and Clumsiness on them.

I think this is why SS does not trigger the AOE-run-like-hell behaviour from the AI. Its based on them making a choice to continue fighting. And right now they are too dumb to stop.

Avarre · Apr 15, 2006, 01:12 PM // 13:12

SS is not DoT. DoT means Damage over Time, meaning a spell, condition, or hex that results in continual damage directly from the spell, over a fixed period of time with the same damage dealt per integer (of /s).

Examples - conjure phantasm, firestorm

Not DoT - barrage, spiteful spirit

AoE fleeing isn't caused by DoT. It is caused by 2 AoE strikes within a period of 3 seconds.

That said, you're right that SS is pretty messed up to not trigger it. It still should cause fleeing if a monster is damaged by it twice in 3s. However, it's nice that it doesn't

Ira Blinks · Apr 15, 2006, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Regarding SS: Fundamental difference is self activation

Firestorm - If you stand there you have no choice but to take damage. The only way to stop taking damage is to leave the area.

SS - You take damage if you choose to do something (attack/skill/signet).

only if SS is on you. Otherwise it is the same thing.

Quote:

As of now, enemies will cast through Backfire, attack through SS and Empathy, attack with Ineptitude and Clumsiness on them.

I think this is why SS does not trigger the AOE-run-like-hell behaviour from the AI. Its based on them making a choice to continue fighting. And right now they are too dumb to stop.

Again the whole point is AoE factor and neither of spell you mentioned has that. Why would you run from empaty? You would probably stop attacking but not run.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

SS is not DoT. DoT means Damage over Time, meaning a spell, condition, or hex that results in continual damage directly from the spell, over a fixed period of time with the same damage dealt per integer (of /s).

actually it is. Taking into account PvE side of discussion the damage is as continual as it gets, since mobs will continue attacking at the same rate no matter what.

lyra_song · Apr 15, 2006, 01:30 PM // 13:30

Im not arguing that its NOT causing AoE dmg. I'm trying to say that SS is not categorized as an AoE by the AI because of its activation.

The AI of the rest of the mob is probably not registering the damage as AOE because its caused by an ALLY.

The AI that the hex is on is turning a blind eye to the damage, the same way it turns a blind eye to backfire, ineptitude, empathy and other hexes.

Recipe for disaster id say ;P

Ira Blinks · Apr 15, 2006, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Im not arguing that its NOT causing AoE dmg. I'm trying to say that SS is not categorized as an AoE by the AI because of its activation.

The AI of the rest of the mob is probably not registering the damage as AOE because its caused by an ALLY.

The AI that the hex is on is turning a blind eye to the damage, the same way it turns a blind eye to backfire, ineptitude, empathy and other hexes.

Recipe for disaster id say ;P

ok i guess i misread you

Matsumi · Apr 15, 2006, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Hmm, I see SS as being more of a triggered AoE that's easily triggered unless the mobs just stand there or run. A DoT type spell, from playing other games, usually would be poison, disease, etc. Because the amount of time that it's effect stays on you is what determines the damage of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damage_Over_Time

I think a DoT AoE would be something like a poisonous gas cloud or something similar, that would effect everything in a large area and cause damage over time.

Cymboric Treewalker · Apr 15, 2006, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Barrage = NOT a spell. Its a SKILL.

Str0b0 · Apr 15, 2006, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Triggering the scatter will not change things significantly it would be a pointless "fix". Leaving all things from the previous thread there all that the chicken run would accomplish is a slight drop in the efficiency of the kills. A good SS necro can put SS on the entire group in a short amount of time. So it triggers they run, they go heal they take damage. They never all scatter to the four winds they all stay fairly close together. Sometimes smaller groups will splinter off but there are almost always at least two of them in close enough proximity to maintain a consistent damage output of 82 for every action taken by the smaller group. Then they will of course immediately band back together to keep attacking and guess what? SS will still be on them and they'll take a massive damage spike and split again lather rinse repeat. The group still dies it just takes maybe ten more seconds. Outside of changing what the skill does entirely it cannot be "fixed" which suggests to me that it isn't broken in the first place. Fixing means you add or subtract something from the original to make it work as it was intended or work better. Fixing does not mean you scrap the original and make a new one. That's called replacing. Also I've seen everyone use Mark of Pain as some sort of support for their arguments that SS should trigger the chicken run. I was using MoP just last night and it didn't trigger the run either. They all just stood there taking their 42 armor ignoring damage. In fact I experimented with a MoP Barrage team and good god it works just about as good as SS. Hit enough of the enemy group with MoP then have the ranger barrage into it. It works extraordinarily well and does NOT cause the chicken run.

MelechRic · Apr 15, 2006, 03:46 PM // 15:46

I find that MoP usually has to trigger 2-3 times before the mob will scatter. I haven't really sat down and done anything scientific regarding when they scatter so it's mainly through observation that I've come to this conclusion.

Maybe some actual experimentation is warranted.

Str0b0 · Apr 15, 2006, 03:59 PM // 15:59

I sat there and watched a group take multiple hits without scattering. I was in a helpful mood so I decided to help some people out with Galrath. They pulled a lot of aggro at the bottom of the ramp leading upo to old Galrath and I couldn't get SS on all of them so I popped MoP on the ones that I couldn't keep SS on and had the tank and the ranger target those. I know I watched it trigger at least five or six times with no scattering.

I still stand by my assertion that causing the scatter with SS will not change anything significantly. The effect is still mobile so outside of making it an immobile effect, I'd love to see how they justify an immobile curse, there isn't anything that can be done. They could lower the damage but all that would encourage is the pulling in of larger groups to offset the penalty since SS scales up the more mobs you cast it on. So if it did cause scatter about the only thing it would accomplish is to annoy people and not much else. It won't "fix " the skill since it is not broken in the first place. It will not balance the game because it will still be as effective a damage dealer as before. Still I've said my bit now. I'm completely finished with this debate. If you think it needs to be nerfed then start a petition. Get some signatures and I'm sure they will do it. It will add ten annoying seconds to my kill time and I'll still do more damage than an ele and the OP will still be upset because of that and in the end the fix proposed by the OP won't change what they wanted changed in the first place which, from what I gathered, was a little more equality between the casters.

Jagflame · Apr 15, 2006, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Again the whole point is AoE factor and neither of spell you mentioned has that. Why would you run from empaty? You would probably stop attacking but not run.

And why would you run from Spiteful Spirit? You would probably stop attacking but not run. Running from a hex is simply retarded because of what I have already mentioned, the AoE field moves with you.

If monsters ran from Spiteful Spirit it would hardly help them because the AoE field would move with them. The only reason it may help is because it causes the initial monster to stop attacking, but no matter how you put it, running from a hex is one of the stupidest things anyone can do.

THEN, you have to put aside the fact that it is not that easy for HUMANS, let alone a monster, to realise that they are being hit by Spiteful Spirit if they were not the inital target.

In PvP, players can warn other players that they have it on them, but other than that it's not that easy to figure out unless you are the original one it is cast on. Monsters should not have the intelligence to realise they are being hit by SS because it does not make itself obvious like Meteor Shower and similar spells.

Mark of Pain is different than Spiteful Spirit in that you control when the damage is caused, not the monster. Running away is the only/the best thing for someone to do in the case that they have MoP on them.

MelechRic · Apr 15, 2006, 05:42 PM // 17:42

I am consitently impressed by how many Warriors/Rangers don't stop fighting through SS in RA/TA. Many times I'm able to get SS on two physically close targets. It's usually only then that they realize they'd better stop attacking. Something about 37/41 damage that a lot of human players don't seem to notice. The only other time I've seen Warriors/Rangers notice it is when they are either Frenzy/Tiger's Fury/Serpent's Quickness players. Then they definitely notice.

Also, the distinction between MoP and SS AoE is a bit fuzzy. I like mine better:

MoP --> externally triggered by physical damage.
SS --> internally triggered by attacking/skill usage.

Both still cause AoE to those allies near to them.

Avarre · Apr 15, 2006, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

actually it is. Taking into account PvE side of discussion the damage is as continual as it gets, since mobs will continue attacking at the same rate no matter what.

Nein. The mobs can take additional actions, causing more hits, or be slowed, causing less. Its damage/action, which while closely related to damage/time in PvE is not classed under the same definition.

I think Melech's idea is the most plausible at the moment.

MelechRic · Apr 15, 2006, 06:57 PM // 18:57

DoT is damage/time right?

So the question is really over semantics. We can all agree that certain skills/spells do some amount of Damage over Time. However, I think most people participating in this thread would agree that the classical notion of DoT has to do with a constant value of damage over a finite period time. This value is always the same and always repeatable.

I would say that the distinction is whether or not DoT is constant.

For things like conditions, hexes and AoE (like Firestorm/Lava Font/Maelstrom/Chaos Storm) the Damage/Time value is constant. On the other hand we have things like SS/MoP that do not have a constant Damage/Time over time value. The reason they don't is that their damage is a factor of the player's ability to click/not click, skill choice, reflex reaction time and internet ping times. Since these are all variable you can never truly have a constant Damage/Time value for SS/MoP.

Ira Blinks · Apr 15, 2006, 07:03 PM // 19:03

I can move out of AoE and stop taking damage. It is entirely my choice to stay there or not, for both SS and Firestorm. True, I can not run from SS if it is on me, but that exactly the part of discussion that is irrelevant to AoE effect.
One could ofcourse say that I will get hit by firestorm at least once before I move, but same goes for SS. Both of those spells are conditional, and I still fail to see how Firestorm is a DOT spell and SS isnt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cymboric Treewalker

Barrage = NOT a spell. Its a SKILL.

how does this make any difference? By your logic skills allowed to be broken and spells not?

lyra_song · Apr 15, 2006, 07:13 PM // 19:13

I guess my question is what is the end resulted wanted for all this semantics?

To nerf Barrage (A bow attack) and SS (A self triggering hex) so that bad guys run from it the same as they do from AOE spells?

Ira Blinks · Apr 15, 2006, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I guess my question is what is the end resulted wanted for all this semantics?

To nerf Barrage (A bow attack) and SS (A self triggering hex) so that bad guys run from it the same as they do from AOE spells?

yes, pretty much

Str0b0 · Apr 15, 2006, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Firestorm and SS are not DoT in the classic sense of the term. DoT implies there is a constant and consistent degeneration of health. A DoT can be tracked and will always do the same damage in the same amount of time. That is to say if you get hit with poison and it does, say 1 point of damage per second, it will always do one point of damage per second and it will do it every second until the spell ends. Now I want to say this and I know this point has been brought up before but I guess you aren't grasping it. Running will not fix the issue. The only thing you can do to fix it is stop doing anything. Do not use skills do not attack and you're fine. So yeah let's make the AI do that. That will solve the problem of it being "overpowered" then instead of doing mass amounts of damage and killing quickly that way all an SS necro will have to do is cast SS throughout a mob and it's like mass pacifism which will in turn lead to an imbalance in the game. This is one of those things where there is no good solution so you must choose the lesser of two evils, which in this case, is to just shut up and deal with it and get on with your life.

Ira Blinks · Apr 15, 2006, 07:35 PM // 19:35

very clever move Strobo... lets turn another thread into meaningless flamewar so that it get closed and nothinng ever gets resolved...
How about no? How about you shut up and move on? Im sick and tired of you picking out stuff out of context trying to make opponent look like an idiot.
Oh and btw you in ignore list now, kthxbye.